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	<title>Comments for ApaCenter</title>
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	<description>Discovering Possibilities</description>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Teacher Effectiveness? by Iektje Stephens</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/measuring-teacher-effectiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-2974</link>
		<dc:creator>Iektje Stephens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 02:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2243#comment-2974</guid>
		<description>Dear Mr. Boggess,

Thank you for sending your comment. I agree that it is not yet clear how to measure teacher&#039;s effectiveness, since we do not yet have a definition of &quot;effectiveness&quot; that covers the whole spectrum of what makes teachers effective. I think Dr. Pianta&#039;s research is very valuable to get us closer to this point. 

The problem I have with value added analysis is that it uses percentile ranks, and changes in percentile rank to determine teacher effectiveness (based on standardized test scores only), and to compare teachers to one another. A percentile rank is a measure of how someone performed relative to everybody else; on a standardized test, you would look at how one student performed relative to all other students in their grade level in the entire school district. So if someone&#039;s score is at the 64th percentile, this means that their score is better than the scores of 64 percent of students at their grade level. 

Percentile ranks are not absolute scores, because the percentile rank that is tied to a particular score depends on the scores of everybody else. So if Johnny scores a 70 on his spelling test, he might be in the 50th percentile in school district A, and at the 85th percentile in school district B. Another feature of percentile ranks is that they cluster in the middle and spread out at the extremes (think of the famous &quot;bell curve&quot;). Most students score in the average range, so if Johnny&#039;s score of 70 is at the 50th percentile in district A, and at the end of the year he scores an 80, his percentile rank may have gone up from 50 to 64. However, if this same score of 70 was at the 85th percentile in district B, and his score went up to 80 at the end of the year, his percentile rank may have only gone up to 86. The same absolute gain in points (10 points) leads to a 14 point gain in percentile rank in school district A, but only 1 point gain in percentile rank in school district B.

If you have teachers with students whose scores are mostly in the average range on standardized tests, you will likely see much more fluctuation in percentile ranks. On the other hand, when a teacher has a class of students who score really high, you will probably not see as much fluctuation in percentile ranks, simply because there are generally fewer students who score really high, because most students score around average. Therefore, if you have a group of really high scoring students, it will be much more difficult to actually make gains in percentile rank. In fact, it is much more likely to see drops in percentile rank at the high scores because of a statistical phenomena called &quot;regression to the mean&quot;. One could then erroneously conclude that teachers who happen to be teaching high achieving students are not very effective, because you wouldn&#039;t see as many gains in percentile points.

This is why I have a problem using percentile ranks to base very important and far reaching decisions on about who is effective or ineffective, and who should keep or lose their job or receive a bonus. Because most people don&#039;t understand how percentile ranks work, many people erroneously regard percentile ranks as absolute scores.

I hope this helps to clarify why I don&#039;t think value added analysis is a fair approach.

Thank you again for your comment, and I hope you will keep reading my blog!

Iektje</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr. Boggess,</p>
<p>Thank you for sending your comment. I agree that it is not yet clear how to measure teacher&#8217;s effectiveness, since we do not yet have a definition of &#8220;effectiveness&#8221; that covers the whole spectrum of what makes teachers effective. I think Dr. Pianta&#8217;s research is very valuable to get us closer to this point. </p>
<p>The problem I have with value added analysis is that it uses percentile ranks, and changes in percentile rank to determine teacher effectiveness (based on standardized test scores only), and to compare teachers to one another. A percentile rank is a measure of how someone performed relative to everybody else; on a standardized test, you would look at how one student performed relative to all other students in their grade level in the entire school district. So if someone&#8217;s score is at the 64th percentile, this means that their score is better than the scores of 64 percent of students at their grade level. </p>
<p>Percentile ranks are not absolute scores, because the percentile rank that is tied to a particular score depends on the scores of everybody else. So if Johnny scores a 70 on his spelling test, he might be in the 50th percentile in school district A, and at the 85th percentile in school district B. Another feature of percentile ranks is that they cluster in the middle and spread out at the extremes (think of the famous &#8220;bell curve&#8221;). Most students score in the average range, so if Johnny&#8217;s score of 70 is at the 50th percentile in district A, and at the end of the year he scores an 80, his percentile rank may have gone up from 50 to 64. However, if this same score of 70 was at the 85th percentile in district B, and his score went up to 80 at the end of the year, his percentile rank may have only gone up to 86. The same absolute gain in points (10 points) leads to a 14 point gain in percentile rank in school district A, but only 1 point gain in percentile rank in school district B.</p>
<p>If you have teachers with students whose scores are mostly in the average range on standardized tests, you will likely see much more fluctuation in percentile ranks. On the other hand, when a teacher has a class of students who score really high, you will probably not see as much fluctuation in percentile ranks, simply because there are generally fewer students who score really high, because most students score around average. Therefore, if you have a group of really high scoring students, it will be much more difficult to actually make gains in percentile rank. In fact, it is much more likely to see drops in percentile rank at the high scores because of a statistical phenomena called &#8220;regression to the mean&#8221;. One could then erroneously conclude that teachers who happen to be teaching high achieving students are not very effective, because you wouldn&#8217;t see as many gains in percentile points.</p>
<p>This is why I have a problem using percentile ranks to base very important and far reaching decisions on about who is effective or ineffective, and who should keep or lose their job or receive a bonus. Because most people don&#8217;t understand how percentile ranks work, many people erroneously regard percentile ranks as absolute scores.</p>
<p>I hope this helps to clarify why I don&#8217;t think value added analysis is a fair approach.</p>
<p>Thank you again for your comment, and I hope you will keep reading my blog!</p>
<p>Iektje</p>
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		<title>Comment on Measuring Teacher Effectiveness? by Clay Boggess</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/measuring-teacher-effectiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-2864</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Boggess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 16:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2243#comment-2864</guid>
		<description>I agree that the definition of an effective teacher needs to somehow be broadened; however how are you going to be able to compare teachers based on subjective analysis? Since value-added analysis initially compares every teachers performance based upon their own student&#039;s academic growth before comparing them to other teachers, I think this is a rather accurate and fair approach. Your point about lower performing students not improving as easily as higher performing students is probably valid however. Perhaps exceptions need to be made in some cases by comparing teachers who have similar baseline scores to each other. Good article</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the definition of an effective teacher needs to somehow be broadened; however how are you going to be able to compare teachers based on subjective analysis? Since value-added analysis initially compares every teachers performance based upon their own student&#8217;s academic growth before comparing them to other teachers, I think this is a rather accurate and fair approach. Your point about lower performing students not improving as easily as higher performing students is probably valid however. Perhaps exceptions need to be made in some cases by comparing teachers who have similar baseline scores to each other. Good article</p>
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		<title>Comment on Tips For Effective Discipline Strategies by Iektje Stephens</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/tips-for-effective-and-positive-discipline-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-2818</link>
		<dc:creator>Iektje Stephens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 00:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2276#comment-2818</guid>
		<description>Hi Brad,

Thank you for the link. That looks really interesting, I will be sure to look into that. 

Iektje</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brad,</p>
<p>Thank you for the link. That looks really interesting, I will be sure to look into that. </p>
<p>Iektje</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dr. Mike Brooks by Tips For Effective and Positive Discipline Strategies &#124; ApaCenter</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/team/dr-mike-brooks/comment-page-1/#comment-2723</link>
		<dc:creator>Tips For Effective and Positive Discipline Strategies &#124; ApaCenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apacenter.com/wordpress/?page_id=275#comment-2723</guid>
		<description>[...] and Learning DisabilitiesEmotional Well-BeingParentingCyberpsychologyOur ProfessionalsDr. Mike BrooksDr. Vickie SchaferDr. Monica WolfeDr. Katie ShepardDr. Laura GuliDr. Stacey BatesDr. Liz [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and Learning DisabilitiesEmotional Well-BeingParentingCyberpsychologyOur ProfessionalsDr. Mike BrooksDr. Vickie SchaferDr. Monica WolfeDr. Katie ShepardDr. Laura GuliDr. Stacey BatesDr. Liz [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on On the &quot;Noble Truth&quot; and Suffering by A Clarification about Suffering: Resignation vs. Acceptance &#124; ApaCenter</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/on-the-noble-truth-and-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-2583</link>
		<dc:creator>A Clarification about Suffering: Resignation vs. Acceptance &#124; ApaCenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apacenter.com/wordpress/?p=88#comment-2583</guid>
		<description>[...] my previous post, I discussed the importance of accepting the fact that an inescapable reality of life is that we [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my previous post, I discussed the importance of accepting the fact that an inescapable reality of life is that we [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Tips For Effective Discipline Strategies by Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/tips-for-effective-and-positive-discipline-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2276#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>This is not Positive Discipline. For a clear definition of Positive Discipline read &quot;What is Positive Discipline&quot; on the Positive Discipline website. http://positivediscipline.com/what-is-positive-discipline.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not Positive Discipline. For a clear definition of Positive Discipline read &#8220;What is Positive Discipline&#8221; on the Positive Discipline website. <a href="http://positivediscipline.com/what-is-positive-discipline.html" rel="nofollow">http://positivediscipline.com/what-is-positive-discipline.html</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The Aftermath of Discipline on DadLabs by Tips For Effective and Positive Discipline Strategies &#124; ApaCenter</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/the-aftermath-of-discipline-on-dad-labs/comment-page-1/#comment-2567</link>
		<dc:creator>Tips For Effective and Positive Discipline Strategies &#124; ApaCenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 03:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=1894#comment-2567</guid>
		<description>[...] is given, it is essential to then restore the relationship with your child and start fresh. In an interview with Dad Labs, Dr. Brooks explained how to do just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is given, it is essential to then restore the relationship with your child and start fresh. In an interview with Dad Labs, Dr. Brooks explained how to do just [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dr. Katie Shepard by Link Between Pesticides and ADHD &#124; ApaCenter</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/team/dr-katie-shepard/comment-page-1/#comment-2565</link>
		<dc:creator>Link Between Pesticides and ADHD &#124; ApaCenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 03:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apacenter.com/wordpress/?page_id=377#comment-2565</guid>
		<description>[...] Well-BeingParentingCyberpsychologyOur ProfessionalsDr. Mike BrooksDr. Vickie SchaferDr. Monica WolfeDr. Katie ShepardDr. Laura GuliDr. Stacey BatesDr. Liz MinneLindsay Bell, M.Ed.Iektje Stephens, M.A.Becky [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Well-BeingParentingCyberpsychologyOur ProfessionalsDr. Mike BrooksDr. Vickie SchaferDr. Monica WolfeDr. Katie ShepardDr. Laura GuliDr. Stacey BatesDr. Liz MinneLindsay Bell, M.Ed.Iektje Stephens, M.A.Becky [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Survival of the Kindest by Iektje Stephens</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/the-survival-of-the-kindest/comment-page-1/#comment-2314</link>
		<dc:creator>Iektje Stephens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2082#comment-2314</guid>
		<description>Thanks! I will be looking forward to seeing you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! I will be looking forward to seeing you!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Survival of the Kindest by Diana Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.apacenter.com/the-survival-of-the-kindest/comment-page-1/#comment-2303</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apacenter.com/?p=2082#comment-2303</guid>
		<description>Iektje!
- like your new blog - keep up the good work! 
(so do your tips help w Emma when shopping in stores?!)
We&#039;re heading to California to spend a month or so in LA with our grandbabies and plan an Austin stop on the way back to Florida at
the end of October - hope to see you all then  :)
xxooDiana
(fyi: only email address: dianabob@hotmail.com)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iektje!<br />
- like your new blog &#8211; keep up the good work!<br />
(so do your tips help w Emma when shopping in stores?!)<br />
We&#8217;re heading to California to spend a month or so in LA with our grandbabies and plan an Austin stop on the way back to Florida at<br />
the end of October &#8211; hope to see you all then  <img src='http://www.apacenter.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
xxooDiana<br />
(fyi: only email address: <a href="mailto:dianabob@hotmail.com">dianabob@hotmail.com</a>)</p>
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